Curse

kincaid · Dec 07, 2006, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

There are quests and two missions on the newb island for you to lvl up your new heros. You also have the option of taking them back to your primary campain and lvling them there with the appropriate lvl missions.

They are a part of this game and are not going to be removed, we are not missing your argument, we just are trying to help you find a solution that works for you.

If you think that Dervishs arnt usefull then youve just never taken the time to read over there skills and fully explore them. They can out tank a war, have better self healing than a monk and can deal huge amounts of damage to both groups and individuals.

If you truely hate using Heros then my only advise would be to stay out of Nightfall.

They will not be removed because they should not be removed.

Nuff said!

Crom, I guess we miss the point.
I didn't write I hated using the heroes. Because it is untrue.
Most of the times I like it, but to get that far, I had to make many improvements as for myself.

1) Train the heroes, that are essencial for me (Dunkoro, Tahlkora, Olias)
2) Gain for them the propper skills (including elites) to create builds
3) Set manually the attributes of each of them (giving also the 2nd profession)
4) Organize the screen bars, skill bars and so, to save some space - as all of the HEROE'S CONSOLES are open (onscreen) all the time. Reason? That is I who decides which skills do the Heroes use. And this is not only about disabling/enabling. Simply - I attack, then use SS out of Olias console, throw Protective Spirit on myself and sometimes use Dunkoro's console. But the last one - Dunkoro - mostly does the job well.
5) Get to know which Heroes do work better in which profession - ex. Dunkoro makes better healing, while Tahlkora - Protection.

If I have to take a hero, who sucks much enough, I simply place a flag for him at the start of the mission/quest - and till the end he/she observes butterflies.

And one last thing. I didn't say that Dervish is weak or does not work at all. By myself I play Dervish, which I like the most just after Ranger. His skills, healing purposes and attack possibilities kick the enemy hard. The profession is trivecta.

I only said, that DERVISH HERO - Melonni - sucks a lot. Does not fight perfect enough and the skills use - is pathetic. All the rest of used by me Heroes (Dunkoro, Tahlkora, Olias, Koss) - can be granted with a little self-acting. It means, that I manually use 1 or 2 skills from their consoles, then I feel comfortable to leave them, as they'd continue to do the job and there is nearly 0% chance for them to die.

Melonni is different. I cannot fight efficient and properly with my Dervish, controling meanwhile Melonni, because of the fact her acting monopoly is a crap. This is what I said and what I ment. Dervish as profession does not suck. It is only about hero in that profession...

aron searle · Dec 07, 2006, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

1: If you are saying that youve always got 8 people that are on at the same time and always wish to do the same missions and quests at the same time, thats something to be really proud of. While there is never going to be a way around having Heros in the missions I would suggest you split into two teams and make some new friends.

Basicly then your saying i should play with AI over people. Thats not actually an answere just stating the problem again.

Quote:

2: This is Anets way of introducing people to proffesions they dont normaly use, just set there secondary to one you know if you cant manage there primary.

Yes i think its really usefull that i get a level 9 dervish with 5 skills when im level 20, thats going to really make me want to use her, over a henchie that i have skills already for?

Quote:

3: Yes having a lvl 2 Koss next to my lvl 20 war is a problem. However Heros lvl up increadibly fast. If you simply choose not to lvl them because you dont want to use them then youve no one to blame but yourself when they are a requirement for Nightfall. If you take some time to do the quests on the island before you go to the mainland youll find heros are at a much higher lvl and can be of use in the required missions.

Why are you beating a dead horse, i dont want to spend time leveling and powering up a hero i will then not use after that mission, or alternativly just manage with 7 people and flag him out the way.

And again its not about effectivness, its just about it being pointless bringing them and having to dump a real person for them.

Even if they were a godlike henchie, it may not fit into the build **I** want to use, or the freind i want to take instead.

Quote:

What it all boils down to is time. If you take your time and work with your Heros they will benifit you in the long run.

So yes, you are missing the point, completly, again.

it

is

not

about

effectivness

Yoda says, effectivness it is about not.

Its about having to use B when you want to use C, and so having to invest time in B, when you dont actually have any intention of using B other than that mission, or telling B to stand out the way and cound the flowers.

Pro-Monk · Dec 07, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

not signed/

It appears the primary issue at hand is more along the lines of playing a level 20 character from another campaign in Nightfall. As a standalone game the heros are at the appropriate levels according to what an average player would be at the time they are acquired.

Since you are a level 20 character doing a quest or mission which would be done by a much lower level character in the standalone game, you are not being handicapped by the hero requirement.

The desire to maintain a human party of eight doesn't have much merit since Nightfall was "designed" around the hero requirement. In otherwords, you could as easily "wish" for a party of eight in pre-searing of Prophecies, or Yak's, or a party of ten in Droknar's Forge. Who, after all, doesn't want more in their party? LOL

Draiyne Valure · Dec 07, 2006, 12:48 PM // 12:48

I do find it irritating when I reeeeally want to get a mission done and I find I have to take a hero I haven't spent much time levelling up. Sure I could go and level him up but I would find it grotesquely boring, while some people don't, which is probably why this topic is so polarised. I have been kicked out of groups playing my mesmer when they have found that they need to take a hero with them.
No, that's not a-net's fault, that's people being dumb. It's not anyone's fault I can't be bothered to train up all my heroes for every character passing through Nightfall.
Regardless of who is to blame, it irritates me.

jummeth · Dec 07, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

People party after NF?

Just annoying that Heros have comepletely destroied the multiplayer experience.

Evilsod · Dec 07, 2006, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by geekling

I think you're missing the point.

No, you are, yet again.

Quote:

Party size for missions in Nightfall is 7 + one spot for an NPC that in previous chapters would be listed as an ally.

No they're not. Gate Of Pain, Kormir wanders around with you, not an ally, not a target, never a corpse.

Quote:

The smaller partysize is the pay-off for having that NPC being ressurectable, and affected by partywide skills. Not to mention, you get to choose who's version of this particular NPC your party brings and how it is equipped. Plus it is an NPC you can control.

The NPC can't attack, be attacked or do anything other than walk around and progress the story. Just like Kormir does.

Quote:

The smaller party size is the pay off not have to babysit a leeroy jenkinsing prince Rurik and the if he gets himself killed the mission fails.

Again, this isn't the retarded Dervish from the Floodplains missions.

Quote:

It's really the same situation as if in your guild/alliance there were 9 people that wanted to join up and do a mission in proph or factions. You have one more than the max party limit, so unfortunably one can not come this time around.

No its not. If there were 9 people wanting to join then there'd be 8 players to choose from who could drop if they didn't need it If there are 8 people and 7 slots available then there are still less, specially if nobody wants to use a Dervish hero because you may already have 2 Dervishes who need the mission in your team already.

Quote:

It might not be fair on that 9'th player. But there is a limit to party sizes for a reason.

Whats your point? The party size is 8 for a reason, not 7.

Faer · Dec 07, 2006, 01:25 PM // 13:25

I didn't get very far through Nightfall while I played it (though I'll be sure to rectify that soon), but I'm pretty sure it has to do with a little thing called "plot". If you don't want any plotline elements in your PvE...

Play MapleStory.

Crom The Pale · Dec 07, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

In the end nothing is going to change.

What all of us are trying to say is there are ways to work with the existing system.

If you can not or will not the maybe Nightfall just isn't for you.

Sorry.

aron searle · Dec 07, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

In the end nothing is going to change.

What all of us are trying to say is there are ways to work with the existing system.

If you can not or will not the maybe Nightfall just isn't for you.

Sorry.

Hmmm your right

I dont like 1 aspect that can be changed, maybe the game isnt for me.

Please turn on your brain before responding.

eudas · Dec 07, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

the fact that the OP in a guild that has 8 people on who want to do the same mission at the same time regularly makes them a minority group, in my experience.

the basic issue is that NF was designed one way, and the OP is of a particular (minority) segment that wants to do something another way. Sorry, but it's entirely possible that it's not for you.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040324h.jpg

The hero system is quite effective, and is as good as it can get without drastically overhauling many, many basic design principles and game mechanics.

i know you'd like to maximize your enjoyment of your guild with 8 people, but i'm sorry, this is just something you're going to have to deal with.

eudas

jummeth · Dec 08, 2006, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Basic issue of NF is that it ruined multiplayer.

kincaid · Dec 08, 2006, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by jummeth

Basic issue of NF is that it ruined multiplayer.

/signed

This is absolutely true.

Carth` · Dec 08, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by eudas

the basic issue is that NF was designed one way, and the OP is of a particular (minority) segment that wants to do something another way. Sorry, but it's entirely possible that it's not for you.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040324h.jpg

lol I think you missed the joke in that comic. You were trying to defend Anet right?

kincaid · Dec 08, 2006, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Rotfl

Stemnin · Dec 08, 2006, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by eudas

the fact that the OP in a guild that has 8 people on who want to do the same mission at the same time regularly makes them a minority group, in my experience.

You must've been in alot of small inactive guilds..

In my guild we'd get tons of guildies to come lend a hand, even my previous guilds were active.

Evilsod · Dec 08, 2006, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

I didn't get very far through Nightfall while I played it (though I'll be sure to rectify that soon), but I'm pretty sure it has to do with a little thing called "plot". If you don't want any plotline elements in your PvE...

Play MapleStory.

Sorry, i thought Moderators were usually the ones to delete stupid posts. Not make them. Next time read the whole thread before making shit attempts at bitching at me.

Perhaps if you did you'll have noticed this thing called "plot" has been dealt with by making these things called "Heros" into things called "NPCs" to advance this thing called a "plot" while not wasting this thing called a "party slot" with this thing called "a useless hero". You getting this yet? Or is your moderators ego impeding the use of your brain?

Quote:

the fact that the OP in a guild that has 8 people on who want to do the same mission at the same time regularly makes them a minority group, in my experience.

Why is this only ever to do with Guilds? Even Pugs have this problem. How many pugs may actually want to use Melonni or another persons hero in general? Its a pug, you can never be sure if Johnny Wammo has decided to give Melonni or Zhed the most retarded skill set out there and is bringing there hero along to 'help'. Its true, there are always heros out there with more common sense than some players (even though they have none), but at least the players can do somet about it. Having to pick an 8th player instead of having to find someone with a good build for there hero (since players will always take more care of there own stuff than there heros).

Esprit · Dec 08, 2006, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Let's keep the personal attacks down, there is no need for them.

It is frustrating sometimes, having to deny that 8th guild member a spot because a Hero needs to be in the mission.

I would favor required Hero's become NPC's or Allies, but in the end there are only 2 or 3 missions where the Hero needed is not the one I want in the party.

Pro-Monk · Dec 08, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

I'm really surprised that this thread hasn't been closed.

A) It's more of a rant than a suggestion
B) It's degenerated into a flame war
C) It's going nowhere

Faer · Dec 08, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

As a moderator, it is (apparently) my job to dispose of this stupid thread.

By the way, the following is an example of moderator ego (which I clearly displayed none of in my previous post, contrary to the opinion and statement(s) of those who would wish to attack me as an easy target):

I'm right, you're wrong. Don't like it? Don't post.